Stop picturing it, start living it! What does your dream life look like? Dr. Sylvia Morris and Dr. Angela Walker are diving deep with the phenomenal Dr. Rhonda Mattox, psychiatrist, media specialist, and coach, to uncover the secrets to building that dream. Get ready to be captivated by Dr. Rhonda’s journey, from a curious kid in Stamps, Arkansas to a barrier-breaking powerhouse. Discover the power of vulnerability, the importance of community, and why designing a life that aligns with your core values is essential for achieving true joy and fulfillment. Prepare for a jolt of inspiration and actionable tips to kickstart your dream life, TODAY!
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Dr. Rhonda Mattox: Design The Dream Life You’ve Always Wanted
We are here for another fantastic discussion with one of our dear friends and colleagues, Dr. Rhonda Mattox, a Psychiatrist, Media Specialist, Coach, and all-around fabulous femme fatale. She is also a leader in Toastmasters, which is a fabulous program for anyone who’s interested in going into speaking. I could say much more, but we’ll leave that to her. Until then, we just wanted to talk a little bit about empowered voices. Sylvia, I’ll let you take the lead. What does that topic mean to you?
I think about how, even with this show, we are using our voices to be authentic, to shine light on other women, and using their stories that we can all learn from. Empowered voices, for me, is giving someone the microphone and having them tell their truth, not being in judgment, but listening with an open heart.
You just said it all. I agree with you 100%. Empowered voices, for me, means telling your truth, being authentic and vulnerable because if we’re not vulnerable with each other, it’s difficult to tell the truth. For me, it’s also important because I feel like I lived in a place for quite a while where I didn’t always feel comfortable saying no, saying what I truly felt because I’m that kind of peacemaker-type person, and I don’t want to rock the boat.
I learned that my voice, giving it power, means that I say things that are hurtful to me. I can voice that that doesn’t make me feel good. I can say, “I’m not comfortable doing that.” In that moment, I have the power, but it also helps the person that I’m speaking with, whether it’s in the work environment, with a patient, at home with my spouse or it’s with my kids.
I think, lastly, I love our show because it sheds a light on a lot of voices that you don’t necessarily hear. They’re not necessarily the first thing you see on social media or on the news, but they are women that have made incredible choices and share a lot of great life lessons. It’s important for my girls to see what other women are doing. I think that’s empowering. Our powerful voice has someone who’s given us a lot of space to share empowerment to others. It is our guest, Rhonda Mattox. We can’t wait for you to read all of the nuggets of wisdom and pieces of laughter that she’s given us during this interview.
She shared some powerful stories about her own personal life and talks about the importance of therapy. Without further ado, we have Dr. Rhonda Mattox.
We are going to jump into our conversation with Dr. Rhonda Mattox. Dr. Rhonda, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
We are excited you’re here.
How Dr. Rhonda Mattox’s Early Life Shaped Her Journey
Long time coming. You have been on our path, and we’ve been joined in a couple of aired videos along the way, but you have just been a true friend to us in this journey, our own journey here. We’re grateful. I know that you have so much to share with our readers. We’re just going to jump right in. One of our first questions, our first pieces of information that we like to get because our readers are always interested, is, how did you grow up? Where did you grow up? What shaped you? What was little Rhonda like?
Little Rhonda was very curious, annoyingly so. One of my favorite phrases was, “But why?” I chuckled because, growing up, I got on my mother’s nerves with, “Why? Why?” To see me now as a person who is a researcher, a psychiatrist who asks why, a radio host, a producer, all of which I am applauded for asking why, I love it. I was an entrepreneur of sorts. One of my first jobs was to bake cakes and get paid $5. This was in the ’70s. That was big.
One of my other jobs, which you will get a chuckle out of, this was an entrepreneurial spirit, if a kid had a bad report card and they brought their report card to me and just let me see their mom’s signature, I could copy that signature, and I would do their homework. I’d finish my homework and do their homework. I was laughing when I was working for the former Dean of the House, Congressman Dingell, for the United States House of Representatives.
I was writing speeches for the Surgeon General and different ones or whatever. I thought, “I used to do their homework, and now I’m getting paid to do the exact same thing, minus the spankings, minus the talk.” In a nutshell, I was curious. I liked reading. I liked doing book reports. I liked giving speeches. All of that has served me well. I grew up in Stamps, Arkansas, home of Maya Angelou, for some part of my childhood.
I was surrounded by love. I had three aunts and uncles who lived right behind me. I had grandparents who lived beside me, and great-grandparents who lived just down the way. I didn’t realize that that was huge and that most people weren’t surrounded by their family until much later in life, probably just in the last decade. I grew up surrounded by people who loved me.
What did you learn from being surrounded by family? I’m from a big city, and when we went to visit our relatives, it was usually an hour or two drive or a plane ride. What did you glean from just being certainly surrounded by love, but also in close physical proximity with your people?
One of the things that came as a result of that was that my self-esteem was high because people loved me. They spoke life into me. I remember everybody. I was a product of everybody, from the bootlegger to the guy at the store. When they knew that I made good grades, it was like, “I’m going to give you $1 for every A you make.” I remember this guy who owned a nightclub, and he had this deal with me that for every A I made, I got $1. I was making all A’s all the time.
My mother also had a deal with me. For every B that I made, there was a whooping. I had positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement at work. I would just say I grew up in an age where, particularly if you were Black, when you were successful, the community owned your success. They were so proud of you. If we were watching television, if someone Black came on TV, we were going to stop and we wanted to watch that. If someone worked at the bank, and that was considered a good job, we were so proud of the individual. The community loved me and poured into me, not just my family, but my extended family and just the community who weren’t related to me.
It sounds like you were already curious from the start, a true-born entrepreneur from the start. It sounds like expectations were already there, and you got support, but I would imagine you also had that feeling of expectations. “My community expects me to succeed.” I may be wrong.
You’re absolutely right. I will say that it started at home. All of my cousins did not have that experience, but I was raised by my mother, who was my aunt. She loved school. She was raised during a time when she only got to go to school if it rained. She loved rainy weather because that meant she could go to school.
It is because she was working. She had other duties.
She was working in the cotton fields. She only got to go to school if it rained. Education was so important to her. Likewise, she transferred that love of education to me. I remember from the time I can remember anything, I remember her reading books to me, buying highlights, all that stuff. I grew up wanting to be a teacher, and we lived just up the street from the school. I would see these kids getting on the bus and going. I couldn’t wait to ride the shiny yellow bus and go to school and all of that. The crazy thing was that when I went to school, I felt like what I learned was that my family was not good enough.
I was surrounded by all this love. My mother was raising me as a single mom. When I went to school, I saw moms and dads, and I thought, “Where’s my dad?” I was seeing just all of these images of the mom who stays at home and raises the kids. The images that I was bombarded with suggested that my family was not good enough. What I learned from school was that a family was supposed to be a mom and dad, a dog and a cat, and a white picket fence. I didn’t have that.
The message that I received at school was not always what I had been taught, which was, “You’re good enough. You’re great. Not only are you going to be someone, you are someone, and one day, the world is going to know your name.” That’s the message I got. When I got to school, I suffered silently because I didn’t come home and say, “What’s going on?” These were messages that I was being bombarded with, but I wasn’t necessarily giving my mom an opportunity to say, “That’s not the way every family is.”
It’s interesting that you say that. I had a similar experience because my mother was a divorcee. This was in the ’70s. When I would go to school, most of my peers had two-parent homes. Whether or not the homes were happy or any of those things, obviously, one doesn’t know all of that, but it was interesting for me to have the experience of being taller, browner.
My mother worked. Not all of the mothers worked, or some of them did, but then they would be able to pick up my classmates from school or get hot lunch. All of those things stayed with me. I also think it was helpful for me because I saw how hard my mom worked, and I knew that I had to succeed and excel because my mom was investing in me in all of these things, and I knew they didn’t just come happenstance. Thank you for sharing that with our audience.
People have good and bad sides, and sometimes they may display more of the bad in certain situations, but really, a lot of the time, they're quite like teddy bears. Share on XAdvice Dr. Rhonda Mattox Would Give To Her Younger Self
Along those lines, what advice would you give to your younger self, knowing what you know and certainly in your line of expertise?
I think I would say I appreciate your circle because, at some point, there was some embarrassment associated with not feeling like you’re enough or your family is enough. My family loved me deeply. They loved me hard. They sacrificed for me. Now that I work in the detention center, I wouldn’t say how uncommon it is, but I realized that you can’t take for granted that your family is going to love you. My family loved me.
I’m from a big family. There were 22 brothers and sisters that my grandparents had, and 14 of them lived. While my mother may not have had a lot of money, I had no idea that we were considered disadvantaged per se because I remember, I had Black dolls. I had these nightgowns. My aunt, who was in the military, shipped stuff my way. My aunts who were business owners just poured into me. I didn’t go without. I looked as fresh as everybody else did at school. I would say appreciate and love on your family, especially when you have good ones.
Even when your interpretation of them is not that they’re good. I love my mom because, when you’re a single parent, and maybe you’ve gone through trauma, you don’t want to leave your child with anyone. She took me everywhere. I got to see the people that the world might just discard. I saw bootleggers. I saw club owners. I saw these people who were certainly flawed but were very much human and who loved me and poured into me. I don’t see things as black and white.
I see that people have good and bad, and sometimes they may, in certain situations, display more of the bad, but a lot of times, they’re teddy bears. I think that helps me to be a good psychiatrist. I once saw a young lady who was fourteen and confided in me that she’d been a stripper. I said, “How do you get into that?” Her mom had put her out. She was stripping in exchange for resources, to have a place to stay, to have food to eat.
I think had I not had some of the experiences that I’ve had and known some of the people that I’ve known, it would have been easy for me to think of her in a very negative way. However, what I saw was a child who did not have love, who did not have support, and who was doing what she could with what she had. I think it made me a lot more compassionate because of the people that I’ve been around. Here’s the thing. I don’t know how in the world my mother raised me like she did because there’s this part of me, as a mother, that’s like, “I don’t want my child to see this.”
I have to remind myself, “There were some things that you saw, and so you need to have conversations.” I remember saying something mean about someone and my mother being disappointed. I would say that because it reflected her family when they were growing up. Having these tough conversations, seeing things, and then discussing who the people are helped me to see people as multidimensional and not categorize them as good or bad.
That’s very interesting, particularly as a mom. My girls are older now, but I have learned that just shielding them from some harsh realities is not a great education for them. It’s having the conversation about the harsh reality that they may have seen, or that we see every day in the media and even social media. Unfortunately, you can shield only so much because, at some point in life, they’re going to be exposed to it. Why not have the conversations about those things when they’re with you?
I remember a young man who was beaten by the officers in Memphis, and I was very intentional because it was devastating for me to watch. I was trying to be intentional about not allowing my daughter to see those images. What I didn’t factor in was that she was going to school. I thought, “She should have had that conversation with me, not them.” You walk this fine line because you definitely want to protect your kids, but letting them experience life and then being there to support the journey, to discuss the journey and to walk through the journey, is important.
I remember after a particular president was elected, my daughter made this blanket statement about who she didn’t like. I reminded her who her godmother was, and I reminded her of who my friends were, and she was like, “Oh.” Sometimes things will happen, and in pain, they will make declarative statements. You have to go and disentangle them, “I understand your hurt. I understand your pain. I understand your disappointment. They’re going to know us by our love, and we can’t let anybody’s hatred contaminate who we are at our core. We can’t become like them.”
Very good. Good info, as we knew you would give.
It’s hard. It’s easier said than done. Sometimes, we say the right thing, but you’ve got to walk the talk.
The Moment Of Deciding To Become A Doctor
It sounds like you’ve had a lot of people pour into you along the way. At some point, you made a decision that you wanted to become a doctor. Can you tell us what that was like and how that came about?
I’m trying to decide if I want to tell you all the ugly details. I grew up wanting to be a teacher, and I grew up being like the smart one. My identity was wrapped up in being the smart one who was number one in her class. I remember going to college, and like, everybody was a smart one. I learned in eighth grade, Dean of Thunderbird said, “Whatever it is that you would do for free is what you should consider doing because, whether you make money or not, you will do it so well that the money will come.”
For me, from probably 7th or 8th grade, I was that one friend that people could talk to. Even if I was judgmental, it didn’t come out on my face because I didn’t want to say I wasn’t judgmental, but I will say I was very compassionate while you were telling me your story. I didn’t look at you like, “What are you doing?” People would talk to me. When I found out that I could get paid to listen to people, I was just like, “That’s a real job?” It was who I was. It was what I was doing already.
When I discovered psychiatrists and psychologists, I said, “That’s what I want to do.” I thought, “That’s a long time to go to school.” I was like, “That’s okay.” My mom was just like, after I graduated, “When are you going to start paying your car note?” I was like, “Car note? Car insurance? I need to go back to school.” Voilà, the doctor was born. I wanted to say something deep, but the part was, “You don’t have to pay your bills if you go back to school.”
That’s the truth of it.
I like the pragmatism. What do you wish you knew before you went to medical school?
Whatever it is that you would do for free is what you should consider doing because whether or not you make money initially, you'll do it so well that the money will eventually come. Share on XI wish that I had known about Kaplan courses because a lot of people learned study skills. They met their respective study partners. I went to school, and people already knew each other. I wish that I had known to do those question sets earlier. I thought, “I don’t have time to do question sets.” I didn’t have time not to do question sets. School came very easy for me. I was doing my work and other people’s work, and I just didn’t have to study hard, but I’d gone to a liberal arts college where our tests were essays.
In med school, the tests are not essays, they’re multiple choice. I wish that I’d taken those courses so that I could be a stronger test taker related to those multiple-choice tests because that was an eye-opener for me, to not just be able to sit and tell you everything that I knew about it, but they wanted to know the best answer. It was a challenge to sit down and take multiple-choice tests. It was a challenge to take an eight-hour test. “Eight hours, guys, that’s what you want from us?” I wish I’d known about that.
Were you a Science major in undergrad?
In undergrad, I was a Biology major, but I was taking classes like ecology and botany. I probably would have also done something else and been pre-med. My thought at the time was, “I’ve got to take these classes. I felt like you can’t have a 3.4 if you’re something else that’s not a science major. My thought was, “If you’re going to have some Bs, they need to be in science classes and not in something else.”
I think a lot of us were taught that and led to believe that. Some were guided otherwise, but now we know you can major in whatever you want to major in as long as you get your prerequisites in. Some people are strong enough to do that. Some may need to stick with just a science background. I think, ultimately, it’s important for young people reading this to know that it might be important to pursue something that they’re never going to be able to do again. We had an interview not too long ago with an Art major, and that was a passion of hers. She included that. “I loved art, and I still love art, but I never would have thought that I would have been able to do that and get my requirements in to get to medical school.” There are ways.
I wish that I had majored in Psychology and got my pre-reqs. That would have been ideal for me.
Essential Advice For Young Physicians And Medical Students
Along these lines, what advice do you have for young physicians? We know that you’re intimately involved with medical school and through Toastmasters, which we’ll get into, but we know you’re deeply involved and do so much for the young students coming up. What advice do you have for them?
Many times, we think about finding our dream job, and I would dial it back a little further than that and say, “Let’s talk about what your dream life looks like.” That’s different for different individuals, but what your priorities are should factor into how you choose your career and where you go. Some people will say to me, “Should I wear locks to my interview, or should I take my hair down?” If you are couples matching and you have to go to a certain place, then maybe you are concerned about that.
For me, authenticity is just so important that I would rather not match than match to a place where, if I wore my hair a certain way, I would not be well-received. I can’t do four years of intensive, anxiety-provoking, challenging-to-the-core work in a place where I can’t bring my authentic self. That would just be like hellfire for me. Depending on what is most important to you, keep that at the core, and then build your life around it.
If you know that, at the core, you want to travel, then perhaps you don’t want to be tied into a surgical something or whatever. You want to choose wisely, or you don’t want to do OB. For me, I remember I almost went into dermatology because my dad, bless his heart, when I told him I was going to be a psychiatrist, was just like, “I thought you were going to be a real doctor.” That hurt my heart to the core, that my dad was like, “I thought you were going to be a real doctor.”
I shifted. For a year, I was doing a dermatology elective and dermatology research. Let me just tell you, cheers to the people who can do dermatology. Those clinic rooms smelled awful. I didn’t want to breathe the same air as those folks. Sometimes, I felt like I could catch what they had. It was just a miserable year for me. Finally, I was just like, “If you want somebody, you’ve got to go to med school, Dad. As for me and my house, psychiatry is where it is.” I don’t regret psychiatry. It was the best decision for me.
I’ve made such an impact. Some of my colleagues wanted to go into psychiatry, but their parents talked them out of it. Honestly, they’re miserable. Medicine is not something you go into to stroke your ego. It truly is a calling. It truly is mission-driven. You have to build your life around what brings you joy and fuels you.
I have a friend who is a pain doc. I’d rather walk through hell in a gasoline suit than do pain. She thinks the same way about me as a psychiatrist, finds what I hear draining. For me, it’s invigorating. It’s a gift to be invited into people’s hearts. Build your life and career around what brings you joy and allows you to express yourself authentically.
It’s so poignant. I snickered when you mentioned if you want to travel, don’t be an OB. I would say this. Look at all your options. I loved psychiatry. That was my first rotation. I tell a funny story. The first week, they had it set up where we did interviews. My head was in a small class, there were probably ten of us. We did interviews with actual patients. They had whatever their problem was, and you had to sit there and have your session. We got graded afterward.
There was an alcoholic patient, and I was trying to convince them to go to AA. They were just very introverted and timid. I said, “What if I just walked in there with you?” For me, that was a real thing. I would imagine that it would be something, who knows what would happen, everything else now. That’s how I felt. When we got to the grading portion, the professor was like, “You got great feedback, and you did well.” I got an A in the class.
The feedback from the students that were with me was, “That’s what you would do? Nobody’s going to do that.” I would, and so at the end of the day, I liked psychiatry, but I loved surgery. I loved using my hands. After that, my next rotation was OB, and I delivered the first baby, and then it was all over. Nobody could have told me not to go into OB. It would have been valuable had I spoken to women who were in the field of OB and tried to find out what some plan B’s and C’s were because people transition, they pivot, such as myself.
It’s not always that high pace, breakneck speed, you don’t sleep. There are alternatives, and you can find them out there. They may be few and far between, but they can be found. I loved your advice. What does your dream life look like versus your dream job? I think then you can navigate a little bit more clearly. Thank you for that.
I think there is something about psychiatry and OB because I’ve had a number of mentees who have been like, “I don’t know, should I do OB? Should I do psych?” I’m baffled at what it is, but you still get to do the OB part with, or the psych part with, your OB patients because there’s a tremendous amount of psych involved. Psych is involved in probably every aspect.
Adolescence, OB, menopause.
Build your career around a life that brings you joy and allows you to express yourself authentically. Share on XYou will get a kick out of the fact that I am a person who tends to say to people, “I think you may be going through menopause” or “You may be very menopausal.” I’m the person who tells them that because we don’t talk about menopause in our community. Sometimes, when people start having the foggy brain, irritability, and sleepless nights, they don’t associate that with menopause. I am sometimes the person who’s saying, “I think you may be menopausal.”
We’ll put a pin in that because that’s when we’re bringing you back. We’ll have that episode.
Using Media To Improve Mental Health
How do you use media to improve mental health?
That I accidentally discovered. I was doing a research project with a psychiatrist who was working with OB docs and training OB docs on how to treat it. Their first launch was to train the OB docs and then to do a media campaign. I was slated to speak to a group of teenagers. I sin greatly because keeping teenagers’ attention for any length of time is a no. As I was driving, I was praying, “Give me a dynamic opening.”
As I was going there, I was reminded that my mom had attempted suicide while she was pregnant with me. I was a third-year psychiatry resident, and it had never occurred to me that my mom had attempted suicide. I’d heard it as a family story, “Your head was bald because your mom drank Mr. Clean.” I never conceptualized that as a suicide attempt. That is what I led with when I gave this talk. You could see their eyes pop open, and they were literally glued to me. They were listening. I told the psychiatrist that I was working with about it when I came back. We were having that discussion because a medical student had died by suicide and had killed his wife. I was telling her about that, and she was like, “Would you agree to make a commercial?” I was like, “No.”
One thing about me growing up in the South is there were two things that I heard from my mom, “Don’t be in those streets acting crazy. Represent well. Don’t tell family business. Don’t be out there in those streets airing out dirty laundry.” For me, that was my mother’s dirty laundry. I was adamant, no. She said, “Will you not say no? Will you consider it and perhaps talk to your family?” Even though I said yes, I wasn’t sure I was going to have a discussion. When I did, my family signed off on it. I was a part of the story, but it wasn’t my story to tell.
We made this commercial, and the commercial was, “I’m Rhonda Mattox. I’m a physician in psychiatry, a resident physician in psychiatry. I didn’t choose psychiatry. I was born into it. My mother was pregnant with me. She had such intense depression that she attempted suicide. We lived. Now I devote my life to helping others prevent the tragedy of suicide.” Thirty seconds. When I tell you that 30 seconds changed my trajectory because I was on a research path at that time. That commercial aired all over the airways, and people started calling me to become my patient. I was like, “I’m not seeing patients.”
They wanted to be my patients. They would stop me at the elevator, stop me at the grocery store. I was a celebrity for all the wrong reasons, as far as I was concerned. I remember when it aired, I had a vulnerability hangover, “What are you doing?” As a psychiatrist, we’re taught to be a blank slate, not to share our lives with people. I’m taught by my mom not to share my life. I’m taught by psychiatry not to share my life. I’ve just gone on national TV and shared my life, and it aired during Super Bowl weekend.
All of my colleagues saw it. I got a call from my real estate agent telling me I saved her life. I was just like, “I haven’t talked to you in a long time. What do you mean?” She was contemplating suicide. She was like, “Lord, if this is not what I’m supposed to do, send me a sign.” In her bedroom came my voice. She heard that commercial, and she literally had a gun in hand. She heard that as a sign from God. I still get chill bumps every time I tell that story because I understand how close I was to not filming that based on my own stigma.
I’m a psychiatrist, but I have these stigmatizing beliefs about it that I had to unlearn and understand. The scripture talks about “By the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony, we overcome.” While I’ve been getting these messages, “Don’t tell, don’t tell, don’t tell,” when I told, it gave others permission to share that they were struggling. I started seeing patients again, and I saw how much that one commercial impacted my community. Fast forward, my mentor was like, “You have to go to Robert Wood Johnson.” I didn’t want to go to the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program. She was like, “You have to go.”
First of all, that’s a big deal. Huge honor and a very selective process.
I had no idea that it was, and I wasn’t interested. Year after year, she was like, “You have to apply.” When I read about it and heard how prestigious it was, I thought, “I’m going to apply so that she will leave me alone.” I won’t. Family, I got four interviews. I got interviews at every site. My husband was like, “It doesn’t matter because we’re not going any place that’s cold.” I declined all the interviews except for one, which was UCLA. I’m like, “That is suicide. You won’t get in.” I didn’t want to get in. I didn’t want to go. I got in, and I didn’t tell anybody. UCLA sent stuff to my dean, to different ones.
I started getting these calls, “Congratulations.” but I didn’t want anybody to know because I wasn’t planning to go. It was like, “You’re what? You’re not planning to go?” Fast forward, I went. I had the opportunity to work with amazing individuals. You all may not know Neil Baer, but he is the executive producer for Law & Order: Special Victims Unit. Within a month of being there, I was having breakfast with him, courtesy of my director, and Neil was inviting me to work with him. I wanted to say yes, but it was around HIV. At the time, that was not my scope of expertise. I was like, “No.”
People want to work with Neil. People don’t say no to Neil. I saw my director, his face turned flushing red. He was like, “What are you doing? Are you an idiot?” Neil was like, “Why?” I said, “That’s not my passion. I don’t think I would be good for you. I could connect you with someone.” He’s like, “What is it you’re interested in doing?” I said, “I’m interested in integrating accurate, non-stigmatizing portrayals into Hollywood storylines.” He said, “I’m interested in doing it.” He connected me to someone, and the rest is history.
You were authentic. I’m jumping in here because you were authentic. You are living your dream life.
My dream life. Authenticity pays off. There are some costs to it, but it does pay off. I’ve worked on episodes like 90210, ER, now I have non-disclosure agreements, but I still have contracts with studios, as we speak, in Hollywood that I promise you would be impressed by. You would.
I knew these shows were getting better for some reason.
I get paid to read scripts. I get paid to do all kinds of stuff that I’d never even imagined. It all started with me stepping out of my comfort zone and sharing my story.
How Professionals Can Use Media To Share Their Message
What advice would you give to someone who may be interested, particularly if we’re speaking as physicians, but someone in their professional career who’s interested in utilizing media to share their message or to help others in their field?
When I got into it, this was not accessible. Doing exactly what you’re doing now, I would say, take these episodes, get them transcribed, get them edited, publish them, put them on LinkedIn, and share. When you’re doing what you’re doing, you will become a magnet for those who want it. You are doing it in a way that will get the attention. As long as you do it about what you know and what you’re passionate about, push a little bit outside of your comfort zone.
If you’re not a rocket scientist, don’t talk about rocket science. Talk about what you know, and get out there and stretch yourself. Many times, physicians are all experts at something. Even if it’s KFC, you’re an expert at chicken. We’re experts at something. Whatever it is that you are frequently being asked about, if you’re giving a speech, pay attention to the questions that people ask. That is the next thing you can write about.
That’s the next thing you can do a show on. People will stumble upon your content and then invite you to come. A young lady who’s an attorney stumbled upon some of my content on Facebook, where someone wrote, “Rhonda Mattox is amazing. I went to something. You guys should pay to hear her. She’s the bomb diggity.” That’s what they say. A lady in Los Angeles, whom I’ve never met, was like, “You’re talking to lawyers now? We want you to come and talk to us. By the way, would you write an article? Would you come?”
It’s like that. When you go to these places, other people are there, and they want you. The thing about it is, we don’t learn business skills. When you’re doing what you love to do, you’re just happy that people want that information. There’s only so much of you. You have to learn how to monetize this so that you can be efficient with your time. In my early career, you could call me, and I was gone. I would be there, and I would be there for free. I value my Saturdays more.
I need to go to some soccer games and some other stuff. On the weekends, I want to be cold chilling with my family. If you’re going to call me and ask me to do something on a weekend, now it costs me more to do it. If I have to take time away from the people I love the most, I want to be paid. I would say, do what you’re doing. Figure out a way to monetize your gift. Particularly for the people that you don’t know. For folks? Maybe. They have coins they can share as well.
On the other side of me, as I coach, I teach people how to monetize their gifts. What they are doing day in, day out, there is money for that, whether it be in courses, books, or whatever. I help people get over their money issues and have conversations about, “This is a bookable event.” I know you want to pick my brain, but we can talk about it. I don’t want to talk about that over here. Book me, however, and I’ll be in the right mindset, and we can have those conversations.
Dr. Rhonda Mattox’s Formula For Making Big Decisions
We will add that at the end. I’ll have you give us a way for people to connect with you via coaching. That’d be great. You have had many iterations of Dr. Rhonda Mattox and have done the Boss Leap many times, jumped from many lily pads. How do you make your decisions? I think I know one of the main answers to your question because I know you, but I’d love for you to share it with our audience. What’s your formula for making those decisions?
It’s twofold. I am always working on jobs that I love, most of the time now. Not all the time, but most of the time. When I get there, I’m enjoying it. When it gets harder and harder for me to show up on time, when it’s a struggle for me to get there, when the thought of going there is ugh, that doesn’t happen a lot. When my grace for the place leaves, and I’m just struggling to go there. Sometimes, when you’re doing things, you will see stuff that feels icky. I can’t tell you all of the icky, but you’ll know it when you feel it. It feels icky.
You’re just like, “This is out of alignment for me. This does not align with my core values. I don’t like what I’m seeing.” The thing about it is, it may not be unethical, but it just feels icky to you. The other part of that, I’m a person of faith. Sometimes, I don’t want to say like, “God tells me to go,” but in my spirit, I can’t communicate to you effectively such that you don’t think that I’m crazy when I say it.
In my spirit, I know. It’s almost like I’m talking to you. It’s like, “It’s time.” I’ll be praying about it because there are times when I want to go because the place is uncomfortable, but in my spirit, it’s like, “No, stay. You need it for such a time as this.” I can’t tell you how many times I wanted to jump ship because it was uncomfortable for me, but I had to stay. Afterwards, it was like, “Time’s up. You can go.”
I remember one time I wrote a letter of resignation two years in advance. I thought when my husband gave me the okay to leave this high-paying job that it was okay. Afterwards, I was drafting my letters on New Year’s Eve. I was ready. I was mad. They had upset me, and they were not treating the people that I worked with right. They would treat me fine, but it was hard for me to watch them treat all the people around me horribly. As a matter of principle, I wanted to separate. In my spirit, it was like, “No.” I was like, “What?” I thought if my husband said it was okay to leave that high-paying job, I didn’t even think I needed to talk to God about it.
Two years later, it was, “You can leave.” I was like, and it was after a therapist, after a therapist had some major insight, and her life was transformed for the better. After she got to where she needed to be as a result of me, it was like, “Your work here is done.” I wanted to say to that therapist, “You should have got your life together two years ago because I’m ready to go.”
I’ve been done ready to go.
Sometimes, we’re on assignment, and we may think we’re there for work, but we are truly there for something bigger than work and its purpose. For me, it’s purpose-driven. I hope that answered your question.
A hundred percent. I can relate on so many levels.
I think authenticity is the word that’s been running through our entire conversation, and being authentically in touch with who you are, that inner voice. For some people, it is God or spirit or however you want to label it. That voice that says, “Yes. No. Be still.” Until I can hear that voice, that’s how I know when to move. Thank you for sharing that with us. I do want to lighten the mood a little bit. You did a wonderful show called I’m Not Crazy, But… If I asked you the question, “I’m not crazy, but…” how would you answer that?
Twofold. I’m not crazy, but I’m intuitive. I just know. Sometimes, I know. I can’t explain why I know, but I know. I’m not crazy, but I’m curious. I’m definitely curious. My mom used to say, “Curiosity killed the cat.” Inquisitive and curious. Intuitive and curious.
Breaking Mental Health Stigmas In The Black Community
“I want to go back a little bit. You talked about one of the topics, about what we don’t say in our communities, what we don’t talk about in our communities. Certainly, mental health is one of those areas. Obviously, we talk about it more now than when I was in high school, but to make it okay to say that I see a therapist, to make it okay to accept that, yes, it’s okay to go see a therapist, and it’s even okay for someone that is deeply religious and has faith.
In addition to that, it’s okay to seek therapy. What advice do you have for us as a community? I’ll say as a community of women. I’ll say, as the three of us here, a community as Black women because I think it’s certainly more taboo in the Black community, Black and Brown altogether. What advice do you have as a very accomplished psychiatrist? What do you want us to do?”
Sometimes we're on assignment, and we may think we're there for work, but we are truly there for something bigger than work and its purpose. Share on XI think for me, I had to unlearn what I learned as a child. What I learned as a child, I won’t say that it was wrong. I needed some of the lessons I learned to survive. As an adult, I couldn’t thrive if I continued to navigate life with those lessons. I had to unlearn the negative thoughts. I remember my mom thinking that depression was a luxury that rich people had, but poor people could not afford the luxury of being depressed.
While I understand where she was coming from, after her death, her death nearly took me out. My desire to be at the top of my game in medical school vanished. My concentration vanished. I had done as much as I could. I remember a dear heart. I think an assistant dean of medicine, knew me, had recruited me into medical school, knew what I was capable of. He was just like, “I think you came back to school too soon. I think you’re depressed.”
He said, “I think you need to see someone.” I said, “Okay.” In my mind, I was thinking, “No way.” He picked up the phone and he called a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist answered the phone and said, “I’ll see her today.” Do you understand what a miracle that is? She said today. I thought, but I wasn’t going. He picked up his keys and he drove me to the office. Here’s the thing. While I was acting like I was okay, I was actively imagining myself or, I wouldn’t even say, I kept seeing visions of me ending my life.
I can’t say, had I not gone there, that I would not have ended my life. For me, I had grown up being hard, being a strong Black woman, understanding that my mom said to me frequently, “You may be the only Black person some people see.” I grew up, from eight years old on, knowing that the weight of other people’s interpretation of Black people rested, and ruled, and abided in how I presented myself. Do you hear what I just said? Going in, I remember, I have no idea what we were talking about, but it must’ve been something tragic. I had the smile plastered on my face.
I remember the psychiatrist saying, “Why are you smiling?” I was smiling because my mom had always told me to fix my face. To not let them see you hurt, whatever. If I looked angry or I smiled, but I did not look sad. Getting in touch with my feelings, and being able to be transparent and show vulnerability and show emotion was something I had to be trained to do. Do you know how crazy that sounds? I needed to be trained to show that I’m upset or that I’m disappointed.
I wasn’t connected. I disconnected from that because it wasn’t safe to show vulnerability in the community that I’d grown up in. I told you all that my family was making fun of my mother for attempting suicide. I couldn’t come out to them about being sad, or to anyone else, for that matter. For me, therapy was the best investment I ever made in myself. Ever. I’m a person of faith. I’m going to say this, and I feel a little uncomfortable saying what I’m about to say. Give me grace.
In church, I learned to lie. “How are you doing?” “Too blessed to be stressed.” Maybe I was stressed. “How are you doing?” “It is well.” I’m not saying tell your business to everyone. What I’m saying is I learned to say the right thing, whether I was feeling the right thing or not. I got encouragement in church. I learned about forgiveness in church. What I did not learn was authenticity. What I did not learn was honesty, even though that’s a part of the Ten Commandments. I didn’t learn that there.
I learned authenticity, being vulnerable, and being transparent in therapy. I learned to process hard stuff. I learned to walk down memory lane and be okay that my mother was not perfect, though I loved her immensely, that my father was not perfect, though I loved them immensely, that I am not perfect. I had learned to be a perfectionist because the world was judging my whole community as a result of what I had done. I had to lay the burden down of being the representative and just be accountable for Rhonda. That took a lot.
I want you to understand this joy that I have. I still see a psychiatrist to this day. That is still a part of my joy team, my emotional wellness team. I have a coach. I have a pastor. I have good, healthy Black women who are strong, vulnerable, and resilient and who let me be me. What I would say to you is, if you are surrounded by people who are going to judge you harshly for saying, “I don’t have it all together,” then you’re probably around the wrong people. You’re never going to see how amazing you truly are and be allowed to be vulnerable. It sounds crazy for me to say, “Be allowed to be vulnerable.”
Many times, depending on how we’ve grown up, we do need to see other people being their authentic selves to get permission to do it. Unfortunately, we sometimes need that permission. I remember my brother told my pastor when I got on medicine, “Rhonda’s on that stuff.” You would have thought that I was on cocaine, crack, or some big drug. I was on a medicine. It was uncomfortable.
When I gave talks in the ’90s about mental health, I was sweating bullets because the people in the congregations were not receiving it. It’s interesting now to see former First Lady Michelle Obama talking about being a teeny-weeny bit depressed and to see the former Duchess, Meghan, talking about having suicidal ideations while she was pregnant. It’s because we weren’t talking about that stuff then.
If you were, you were being poked fun at. It’s a new world. What I’m going to tell you is your world opens up when you are courageous enough to invest in yourself. Don’t let any friend, any partner, any pastor keep you from investing in you. I would say, pray that you find a godly or a wise counselor aligned with you, not one that’s going to make fun of you or disparage your belief system or anything like that. Therapy is worth it.
Thank you so much for your transparency, just nuggets of wisdom. I appreciate that.
My pleasure.
The Ideal Joy Team For Self-Care
We always ask our guests about their self-care practice. You just mentioned a joy team, and we may have to trademark that with you. On your joy team, I heard that certainly there is a therapist, a pastor, and a group of sister friends. If you were going to build the ideal joy team, who would be on your joy team?
When we were in the pandemic, I called it my emancipation circle. They didn’t start out as my friends. They were my colleagues at work, two psychologists and one public health advocate. When I tell you we processed the death of Ruth, the Supreme Court justice, we processed George Floyd, we processed Ahmaud, we processed all those deaths with tears. It started out as the Sweet Tea and Lemonade podcast. Most of those episodes didn’t air because they were in academics and needed to have a certain professionalism.
We’d be snotty-nosed, teary-eyed, but it was so refreshing. We have treated tears like they’re terrorists, but they are therapeutic. On my team would be people that I’m safe with and that I can have these conversations with, and then there’s not this. I pay attention to my body when I’m with you. If, when I leave you, I feel joy, I feel invigorated, I feel encouraged, check. I can hang out with you some more. If I feel more anxious, more fearful, or I feel judged, minus. Deduct. Don’t want to hang out with you.
That goes for dating, too.
For sure. On my team are people that, when I leave them, I feel invigorated. I feel like, “You can do more.” We are not competing. We’re collaborating, encouraging, and inspiring. On my team, I have authors. I am writing, and I do journals. I’ve always had these journals. I share them with patients, but my patients are sick of printing off the journal pages.
We have treated tears like they're terrorists, but they are therapeutic. Share on XBy popular demand, I’ve put together this journal that’s being formatted as we speak, called Pathway To Peace: A Creative Journal, a guided journal through anxiety. Don’t we need that journal? I wish I could tell you I exercise. I think about exercising. Does that count as self-care? No. I go to church. I belly laugh. I haven’t seen you, I’m a belly laugher. I love to tell stories. I’m a storyteller. I have performed comedy in a comedy club, and I have another set coming up.
That’s awesome. I knew you did the first. Where?
It’s in Arkansas. It’s at The Nut House.
Great name.
Love it.
That is coming up, and that is so much fun.
That’s self-care. It’s doing something creative that brings you joy.
I can’t leave out my dog. Oliver Twist is a part of my joy team. He is at the top of my joy team. Oliver Twist, the dog we got during the pandemic for my daughter.
They always become ours.
She wrote a contract telling me everything she was going to do. She’s violated the contract a thousand times over, and that is my dog.
They’re not binding with kids.
They are not binding. She hasn’t reached the age of consent. That is my dog, my love, my joy. That’s the top of it. I also self-soothe with food.
We’ll work on two of those that you mentioned. That’s a lovely list, so great. Clearly, Rhonda, we have a lot more that we could discuss with you, and we definitely want to have you back. You’re always such a joy just to be around, from the moment that we met you and you were gracious enough to talk with us when we first started off in the physician media world. Here it is.
How To Connect With Dr. Rhonda Mattox
We’re lucky enough to have you join us and take the time to be on this show. I know our readers will be busting a gut as well as writing a lot of notes. Before we let you go, and we’ll definitely put this in our show notes, I know you mentioned your coaching. How can we get in touch with you? Anything else you want to add? We definitely want to put the date down for your Nuthouse performance.
First of all, let me just tell you, these ladies have probably not told you that they rock, that they are amazing, and that they’re doing great things. I just want to do this right here for them because they are totally nailing it in terms of delivering, particularly to women of color, a call to excellence, a call to live their dream lives. The book The Game Changer, if you don’t have it, you have to go get it.
It is definitely a game-changer for you. To reach me, you can find me on DrRhondaMattox.com. You can find me at DrRondaMattox.me, and you can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. If you find me on Instagram, you’re going to see my dog, Oliver Twist, and you’ll see the joy that I bring. When you follow me, I’ll just be sharing my nuggets. Don’t come over there thinking I’m going to sound all doctor-y. I may or may not. It depends on what day it is. If you want to work with me to monetize your gift, your message, or your method so that you can start getting paid for it let me know.
My husband went to Georgia, and we drove twelve hours for him to speak. They gave us a hot dog and a sandwich. The hot dog had no relish, no cheese, no filling. The hamburger had mustard. There wasn’t even ketchup, mayo, or onions. That is what he was paid for 24 hours of drive time. I said, “Never again.” I had to get over my money issues. I help people get over money issues so that they can charge for the gift that God has given them. They can monetize it and get past those money issues.
That’s what I do, help people get past their money issues, because you’re already doing all the work. You’re speaking, you’re doing all this stuff. I help you package it in a way that markets yourself. That’s the fun part, I love it. I love when people can either dial back the work they’re doing because they’re getting passively paid while they sleep or they’re making money in their sleep, so they don’t have to take on a third or second job. They can dial it back. That’s the fun part. Thank you for asking.
I can vouch. We haven’t been on your roll book, per se, but just since we’ve known you, just your non-monetized advice.
I helped them monetize. I hope they listened to what I told them to do. It sounds like they have.
We’re working on it.
We just haven’t paid you for anything. That may be forthcoming. At any rate, in the interest of your time, because I know it’s precious, we are just so grateful for you. We love you and wish you all the best. To you and to our readers, may you be well.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us, Dr. Rhonda. May you be well.
My pleasure.
Key Takeaways From Our Empowering Conversation With Dr. Rhonda Mattox
Dr. Angela, that was a powerful conversation we had with Dr. Rhonda Mattox. She is a powerful woman. I’m feeling empowered now. We learned about being authentic, but what are some pearls that you took home from our conversation with Dr. Rhonda Mattox?
I had to write this one down. I hate to look down at my notes, but, tears are not terrorists, but therapy. Lord knows I’m a crier. For the longest time in my life, especially with people that are close to me, I always felt self-conscious about doing that. I do have to rein it in because sometimes it can be a point of weakness if you can’t talk through your tears. Knowing that to cry is okay, I think that’s part of growth for me, anyway. I loved her quote on that. One of the things that she talked about is doing things well, how she learned to do things well. I don’t know why that stuck with me, but in whatever you do, it doesn’t have to be on a grand scale, but do it well.
Put your whole heart into it. Put all of your effort into it. When we started this show, we could have done it the way we first started, just recording, but we knew that wouldn’t have been what we wanted as our final product. It’s definitely still a work in progress, but for me, in terms of what I put out into the world and when I talk to patients, I want to do it well. If I’m talking about menopause, then I want to make sure that I’ve got all the updated information, not just what I learned in medical school, because things continue to evolve. Doing it well was important.
I’m going to jump in for a moment because I don’t want to lose this thread about doing things well. I think it’s about doing it well consistently. We can do things well only when the spotlight is on us, only when our boss is going to see or only when someone we love is going to show up. We have to do things well all the time because it is a habit.
Habits only develop when you practice them consistently, then they become second nature. “How you do anything is how you do everything.” It is important, the commitments that you make to yourself. “I’m going to get up at this time every day. I’m going to make my bed. I’m going to walk. I’m going to eat nutritious foods.” All of that is part of the habit of doing things well.
You just interrupted me to preach to me, because I needed to hear all of those things, especially the waking up part. Thank you. There’s always a reason. I appreciate Him putting those words in your mouth. I agree with you 100%. It’s not just when the cameras are on or when someone’s watching, it’s what you do behind the scenes. That is doing it well.
The last thing I love about her, which is something I feel like I have in common, is curiosity. I always want to learn. I feel like as we grow older, some people just stop. Maybe it’s the way we’re taught, or maybe we’re told, “Now is the time in life where you just enjoy what you’ve learned, what you’ve worked for, just sit back and relax.” I always want to learn. Curiosity is something that drives me. It’s the reason, again, why we do the show, the reason why I’ve done some other things outside of just OB-GYN in the office. I love that aspect of life, just continuing to be curious. I think I’ve said enough. Keep learning. How about you?
The two things she said that grabbed me. What does your dream life look like? I wish someone had asked me that question because when I was in the process of becoming a doctor, I was laser-focused on that, but I don’t think I had an inkling of what my dream life looked like. I’m at the stage of my life where I get to create more.
I have more flexibility. I get to make more choices. I am in the space now, and I’m grateful for that, of being able to say, “I envision” or “My intention is for my life.” I think the earlier you start thinking about what your dream life will look like, the more it will pay dividends. Your dream can change. I don’t want you to think that my dream is fixed. Just like Dr. Angela was just saying, we are always learning. We are tweaking the dream.
On that dream life, because the caveat there was that she was saying to ask about your dream life, not your dream job. As mentors, sometimes I do tend to ask young people what their dream job is, but it is the life around the job that matters. It may be something that you know you want to do. It’s valuable to speak to people who are doing the thing you may want to do and ask what their life is like, what they would like it to look like, and how you would get to that point when you’re trying to put the whole package together. I agree. I love that. What was your number two?
Number two, I called it her joy team. I think she referred to it as her emancipation group or circle. I believe that’s how she coined it. I like the idea of a joy team. I have a therapist. I have a physical therapist because I have some neck issues. I have a personal trainer. I do a fair amount of Pilates, which I enjoy. I have a hairstylist. I have an esthetician. My joy team gets long.
Also, and equally as important, I have my girlfriends, including Angela and the rest of the girls, and my co-authors from THE GAME PLAN: A Woman’s Guide to Becoming a Doctor and Living a Life in Medicine. I think having a joy team is important and being intentional about who is on that joy team. If they’re making you feel good when you leave their presence, and your body says, “Okay,” your heart rate’s lower, your breathing is calmer, and you’re not feeling all anxious inside, then that person could be considered for your joy team.
That was right. That spoke directly to me. I’m surprised it didn’t end up on my list, but absolutely. That was beautiful. Excellent. We are both full. I know, as we always are when we leave her presence, that we are just grateful that you guys are along for the ride with us and are able to experience what we are experiencing. Certainly, if you have any ideas about what you’d like to see and hear, let us know. Until we meet again, may you be well.
You can reach us at BossLeapPodcast@Gmail.com. Also, visit our website at BossLeapPodcast.com. Please share, like, and subscribe. Thank you very much. May you be well.
Important Links
- Dr. Rhonda Mattox
- Rhonda Mattox on Facebook
- Rhonda Mattox on Instagram
- Dr. Rhonda Mattox
- Pathway To Peace: A Creative Journal
- THE GAME PLAN: A Woman’s Guide to Becoming a Doctor and Living a Life in Medicine
- The Game Changer
- Boss Leap Podcast Email
About Dr. Rhonda Mattox
Dr. Rhonda Mattox, MD, is renowned as America’s go-to psychiatrist. A highly sought-after transformative physician speaker, her extensive medical expertise and insightful counsel have been featured in popular media outlets such as Money, Forbes, Huff Post, New York Times, and Newsweek, as well as in respected academic journals. Dr. Mattox has also served as a medical media consultant to Hollywood’s writers and producers and as a policy advisor to Capitol Hill’s elite, including former U.S. Representative John Dingell Jr., the longest-serving member of the House of Representatives, who is credited with authoring the House version of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
Dr. Mattox is the immediate past president of the Arkansas Medical, Dental, and Pharmaceutical Association (AMDPA). As a psychiatrist, her primary focus has always been to reduce stigma and increase access to mental health care. She considers it an honor to have been trusted to serve as a health policy advisor to U.S. Representative John Dingell Jr. during the rollout of the Affordable Care Act, a historic moment that ensured Americans in need of mental health and substance abuse treatment were guaranteed access to these essential benefits in their health plans.
Dr. Mattox’s advocacy for healthcare access dates back to her medical school days, where she served as the Region III Director of the Student National Medical Association. She has long been a vocal leader in the call for increased healthcare access, a commitment she continued throughout her tenure as the Medical Director of the Arkansas Minority Health Commission, where she led efforts to serve the people of Arkansas. Her leadership culminated in her election to head the Arkansas Medical, Dental, and Pharmaceutical Association.
Dr. Mattox believes that there is health and wealth in living authentically. She is passionate about helping individuals process their pain and reframe it to create health and wealth on their purposeful journeys. She is committed to helping others pivot from pain to purpose—and to profit—by teaching them how to monetize their message and methods.